In this week’s must-read mailbag, coach Stephen Edwards looks discussed the most underrated chins in history, which of the modern-day heavyweights will make the International Boxing Hall of Fame, the prospect of Artur Beterbiev-David Benavidez, calls Joe Calzaghe-Carl Froch, and more…
Been a little while and wanted to write in again and ask you a question about chins. I feel like whenever the topic of greatest chins comes up, people point to the usual suspects of George Chuvalo, Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Robinson, Gennady Golovkin, Gene Fullmer, Muhammad Ali, and so on. But I was curious, who are some of the more underrated chins in boxing history? Like the kind of chins that nobody really talks about, but really withstood serious power when you watch their fights? Who are your, let’s say, top 10 most underrated chins ever (or just in your lifetime, if that’s easier)? Greg K.
Bread’s response: Good Question. Let’s see – underrated chins. Kid Gavilan used to chew sugar cane. If you look at his neck and chin it was built to take a punch.
Mike McCallum is known as a smooth, body puncher. But his chin was super sturdy. He wasn’t stopped in 20 years as a professional and he went through five weight divisions.
David Tua’s chin is ridiculous! Danny Garcia has a great chin. I’m still shocked he got stopped by Erislandy Lara.
Roberto Duran got iced by Tommy Hearns. But other than that, in over 100 fights, his chin stood up. Duran’s chin was crazy good but it gets overlooked. He started at lightweight and moved up middleweight and as an old man he stood in front of all of them.
Antonio Margarito has a CHIN. I know he had the hand-wrap issues and that was despicable. But you have to give credit where credit is due. Margarito had a serious chin.
“Winky” Wright was a very durable fighter. Very durable. Dwight Qawi had a reliable set of whiskers. Oscar De La Hoya had a very reliable set of whiskers.
Dmitry Bivol is the first man to go the distance with Arthur Beterbiev. Oleksandr Usyk may have the best chin in boxing currently.
Hey Bread! You recently mentioned that Usyk is an ATG, so I assume he’ll be a first ballot Hall of Famer. How about Fury, Wilder, and Joshua? Have any of them secured their spot in the hall of fame yet in your opinion? You recently mentioned that Fernando Vargas and Jose Luis Castillo are borderline. I believe they’re both on the HOF side of the border and hope they both eventually get in.How about Vernon Forrest? Lastly, how does Don King’s middleweight tournament playout as follows? Trinidad vs Hearns at the Garden and Hopkins vs Hagler in Philly. Winners face each other
Bread’s response: I think Fury, Joshua and Wilder all should be on the ballot. I think Fury and Joshua have strong chances to get in. Wilder has a solid title defense numbers but the media seems very critical of him. He may need another big win over a top fighter to get in.
If Vargas and Castillo get in I wouldn’t be surprised. I don’t like to make this argument but Vinny Pazienza just got in. Both were a clear level or two above Pazienza. Vargas was also very popular, like Pazienza. So it’s not out of the question.
Castillo is a HOF fighter in my opinion. He should be in. The eyeball test says he should be in. His performances vs Floyd Mayweather, Stevie Johnston, Diego Corrales and Joel Casamayor should get him in. It’s a shame he’s not in if we are being totally honest.
Vernon Forrest was a tremendous fighter but I don’t know if he did enough to get in. The Mosley victories were excellent but his resume and performance value gets very thin after Mosley. He lost twice to Mayorga which really hurts him. He got a gift vs Ike Quartey. And he was too hot and cold at junior middleweight. I would guess that Forrest would need some help from a down year to get in.
Tito vs Hearns is a brutal fight. Hearns has some advantages and he should win the fight but Hearns had a vulnerability in his attack. His left hook was wide and sweeping after his right hand. Leonard beat him to the punch several times with hooks. Tito’s hook is as good as any hook we have seen. My pick is Hearns but, boy, he would have to be careful.
Hopkins has the chin, conditioning and style to beat Hagler. The question is would he beat him? I’m going to say no but this is a tough fight. Hagler by close decision. And we already saw Hagler vs Hearns…
Hope all is well with you and your family. Hope your children are thriving. It’s Howie – we have spoken on the phone a few times. Two boxing addicts lol, and I’ve loved hearing your expert opinion on the game. Styles make fights. I think this may be your upset special that you talked about in last week’s mail bag. I love Gary Antuanne Russell over Rayo. Too big, too fast and quite honestly just better. What are your thoughts? Howie
Bread’s response: I was very high on Gary Antuanne Russell. I was surprised he lost. I think he’s the goods but his matchmaking is not conducive to making a great fighter. At some point most fighters’ schedules slow down. But Russell has been very inactive during his formative years. It’s tough to overcome that when you also haven’t had the championship experience. Russell is a class of 2016 fighter and he doesn’t have 20 pro fights yet, and he’s only fought one championship fight. He certainly has the ability, but his progress is in question to me. I just wonder where he is, in terms of development.
El Rayo impressed me vs Pitbull Cruz. He boxed his butt off. And after seeing Russell lose, I suspect El Rayo, Valenzuela, is going to be super confident. In terms of talent and ability, I think Russell has an edge. But in terms of where they are at this current moment, I literally have no idea. I don’t know the odds yet. I think Russell may be a slight favorite but this is a tough fight because of the circumstances…
Bread, I see a reasonable chance that Benavidez vs Beterbiev could mirror Tszyu vs Bakhram. This is not to compare the skill set of the boxers. If David takes the mindset of Tszyu, he may find himself repeatedly on the canvas without a back-up plan. Whether it happens that night or some other, what do you see from Benavidez that leads you to believe he has the psychological make-up and physical ability to fight any other way? Jeremy
Bread’s response: David Benavidez is more well-rounded defensively than Tim Tszyu. Benavidez is an animal. He’s a killer. But he is defensively responsible. He catches punches. He blocks them. He slips them. He gets greedy but he never abandons his defense. I’m not saying Beterbiev can’t stop him. Because Beterbiev can stop anyone at 175lbs. But Tszyu was a very arrogant fighter vs Bahkram. He just walked in slinging big shots thinking he had immunity to punches coming back. I don’t believe Benavidez would do that vs Beterbiev, but we shall see….
A couple of questions if you have time. First is on Joe Joyce – it’s strange how one situation, Zhang, can take you from the best contender who KO’d Dubois and Parker, to an afterthought. Would you assume he’d lose both of those rematches? I have personal gratitude towards him due to the chicken I earned betting on him for both those fights. Second question is on the least anticipated fight on the upcoming Saudi card, Buatsi vs Smith. I met Buatsi a few years back and he is the nicest guy you could possibly meet, but in my opinion Smith is all wrong for him. Assuming Smith isn’t ruined, it reminds me of Bakole vs Anderson, where the powers that be see a big name with a loss and don’t consider the match-up and make a terrible mistake. As I say, I hope I’m wrong – Buatsi is a serious talent and a really nice guy – but styles make fights and him against a long-limbed puncher does not sound right. Smith in my opinion is still top level and a bad style for Buatsi. Thoughts?
Bread’s response: I feel for Joe Joyce. I feel like they rolled the dice with him too many times without ever getting a world-title shot. Joyce is an older fighter and he gets hit cleanly. He delivered vs Dubois and Parker but they kept rolling. Then he took a horrible match-up for him in Zhang. Joyce earned a title shot but instead of fighting for a title, he fought maybe the most dangerous heavyweight in the world in a non-title fight. I can’t say if Joyce would lose both rematches because Parker and Dubois were both stopped by him and they would have to get over that mentally. But I suspect both would be favorites.
So you think Callum Smith is all wrong for Joshua Buatsi? I really can’t say. The stylistic difficulty does not jump out to me but I respect your opinion. I feel like Smith is a good puncher and he has a vicious counter hook. But I also saw a guy who was intimidated by Canelo and didn’t fight back hard. The loss is no big deal but not selling out for the win is. Smith was undefeated and in his prime and he was reluctant with Canelo. Fighters don’t usually give up their 0 that easy…
Buatsi is a well-rounded, heavy-handed fighter. His major flaw in my opinion is he stares in space at times and it makes him appear vulnerable to a big shot. If he can listen to his trainer Virgil Hunter and allow Hunter’s IQ to be his IQ, he should be able to avoid the big counters of Smith and outwork him. If the fight comes down to who’s willing to give more of themselves, I’m more comfortable going with Buatsi than Smith.
Canelo Alvarez signed a four-fight contract with Turki Alalshikh. Alvarez’s first fight will be against William Scull. He will then fight Terence Crawford. That seems to be set in stone. According to circulating reports, fighters in contention for Alvarez’s third fight are Dmitry Bivol, Hamzah Sheeraz (I assume Sheeraz has to beat Carlos Adames to stay on this list) and Chris Eubank Jr. Do any of these fights improve Alvarez’s legacy? Do any of these fights help silence the growing noise that Alvarez doesn’t fight the very best?
Bread’s response: Sure they do. If Canelo avenges his loss to Bivol that’s a huge win for him. Bivol beat him the first time and whenever a fighter can avenge a loss vs a great fighter, it’s a feather in their cap. I also believe that if Hamzah Sheeraz beats Carlos Adames then he becomes a star. And anytime a veteran like Canelo can fight and beat an in their prime fighter like Sheeraz it’s a good accomplishment. As for Scull and Eubank Jr, I don’t think they do anything for Canelo’a legacy to be honest…
Props and praise for checking me a few months ago when I wrote in about my concerns after the Fulton vs Castro fight. Fulton is one of my favorite fighters but I questioned if he would bounce back after Inoue. Well, he looked brilliant against Figueroa and I won +165 money because the world slept on him and I listened to you. Scooter was sharp and I can see the benefit of having both Bozy Ennis and Wahid Raheem working together. His confidence and trust in his beard are back and he looks a lot more comfortable at that weight. I listen to his interviews and he talks about being a three-weight world champion – given his walk-around weight, reach, punching power and body density, what do you see as his ideal weight division and his ceiling weight division at this point in his career? I saw that J-Rock is going to fight Yoenis Tellez at 154 and comfort at the weight is a primary variable for me. Did J-Rock decide after the Adames fight to campaign at 154 or is this the young prospect trying to put the older former champion at a disadvantage via a weight cut to increase the possibility of a win? Pullin for y’all as others sleep! I’m watching a lot of of 80s and 90s fights on YouTube while riding the stationary bike. Been watching a lot of Michael Spinks, Salvador Sanchez, Larry Holmes and James Toney. Can you suggest two or three excellent fights that show the skills of Mark Johnson and Pernell Whitaker? Also, can you suggest two or three forgotten wars of the 1990s to watch, like Corrales-Castillo, Bradley-Provodnikov, Hagler-Hearns, Duran-Leonard I, Quawi-Spinks ? Billy Bomaye
Bread’s response: I’m glad you listened to me about Scooter Fulton. He has elite boxing IQ and instincts. It’s hard to beat him if you aren’t a level above in talent like an Inoue… I think he could win a title at 130lbs but I think Fulton is fine at 126lbs. A little struggle to make weight is not a bad thing because if a fighter in this era makes weight too easy then they’re probably too small for the weight. It makes you work hard when you don’t have room to spare to make weight. But I can never count Scooter out. His mind is on another level – and the mind lasts longer than the body. He certainly has a shot to win a title at 130lbs, but next time you write in give me a specific match-up at 130lbs so I can give a better answer.
Also, don’t forget about Hamza Muhammad. He works alongside Bozy Ennis and Wajid Raheem. Muhammad is actually Fulton’s first trainer and he groomed him throughout the amateurs and the early part of his pro career. He’s an excellent young trainer.
Tellez wants an ex-world champion’s scalp on his resume. So we got the call. But just because that’s what he wants, that doesn’t mean that’s what he will get.
Watch Pernell Whitaker vs Greg Haugen and Jose Luis Ramirez II, he put on masterclasses. But honestly, you can just pick one of his eight lightweight title defenses and you will see basically a perfect fight.
With Mark Johnson, watch him vs Arthur Johnson. Too Sharp was absolutely ridiculous that night.
Wars of the 80s or 90s – your question is unclear so I will give you a few of both to watch. Chacon vs Limon IIII, is quite possibly the best fight of the 80s. It’s every bit the equal to Gatti vs Ward I, believe it or not. It’s that good.
Another great fight of the 80s that no one talks about is Brown vs Trice I. Unbelievable fight.
In the 90s I saw some death matches. But I’m going to pick some underrated stuff that no one speaks on. Merqui Sosa vs Prince Charles Williams I. I don’t even have to describe it – just watch it.
Another is Robert Quiroga vs Kid Akeem. Just check it out and get back to me.
Hello Bread, I just wanted to get your thoughts on fighters’ family and you as a trainer, to see if you have much or any interaction with them? We all know how tough training is, especially as a fighter, but it must be as hard or harder seeing your loved one go toe to toe with another trying to inflict as much damage and pain as possible. I understand this is a very personal question but where I’m coming from is more so from the partner and children side of things. I can only imagine how difficult it would be for all involved, especially when a fighter is away for a training camp, leaving loved ones behind as they put themselves through hell. For any family, if their home life isn’t good it’s pretty damn hard to hide and as a trainer you know these guys better than most and that the ring is a truth serum. There is a certain bond athletes and trainers gain over time, so I’m curious to see, if you thought something was off would you involve yourself in something this personal? Would you sit with your fighter and air any concerns if you thought something wasn’t good at home? Is there a line you don’t cross? I know how much of a family you are, but I don’t know to what extent a trainer or manager would go to look after both. Pretty deep I know, but I’ve been ringside and have seen the effects it has on a family when a partner cops a beating and it’s incredibly difficult to stomach. Sam, from Australia
Bread’s responses: This is an interesting question. Fighters have to sacrifice so much in camp. From abstaining from sex, to diet, to being alone, etc, etc. I am not a big believer in a fighter having to go away for camp. I believe camp is in the mind. A fighter doesn’t have to go 1,000 miles away from his home to go to camp unless that’s where his trainer is… Distractions will follow no matter where you are. As long as his home life is in order, I think camps can be done in their hometowns. Sometimes they can be in the same house as the family, or maybe have a training house, but being super far away as a necessity is troubling to me. Because if you have to go away to lock in, I would question their focus. I also know that anxiety festers if something happens at home and a fighter is a two-hour flight away from home.
I have met the family of every pro fighter I have ever trained. In fact, all of the fighters I have trained that were pros had their dads in the gym for support. And one fighter’s dad is actually part of the training team. I have noticed that the more support a fighter allows their family to give them, the better it is. It takes away the stress of small things – like giving out tickets for the fight. Handling small things like where everyone will sit. Team T-shirts. Cooking meals. All types of things.
The most structured camp I had is a camp where a fighter’s wife handles all of the logistics except the cooking.
If a fighter is having some personal issues with his family, I definitely will say something. I will say it respectfully but I will say something. Simply because it affects his performance and I’m responsible for his performance. What I won’t do is fight about it. I’m not going to argue about it. If I feel something counterproductive is happening I will speak on it. If I feel something will occur in the future I will give a respectful warning. If the fighter doesn’t listen, it’s on him.
I don’t want it to ever come down to a fighter being forced to make a choice between what I say and what his family wants. So I know how to deliver my message without overstepping my boundaries. One of the things I observe about a fighter is his family. His parents; partners; close friends; siblings and extended family. If I feel that someone in their circle will affect my training, I will carefully stay away from that person. I will try to limit my interaction with a person.
I once trained a fighter whose brothers came to his fights. One of his brothers got into it with his manager and accused the manager of putting the fighter in the ring injured and basically feeding him to an opponent the fighter should’ve beaten. But the truth was the fighter injured himself on purpose by getting another family member to numb his nerves in his core by banging a stick on his ribs like Manny Pacquiao. There was no way the manager should have postponed the fight when I personally warned the fighter to stop doing it. His ribs were sore but it wasn’t a case where it was so bad to cancel the fight.
Another one of his brothers sat right in the corral behind the corner and everytime I yelled an instruction he yelled the exact opposite. The fight was in a small ballroom so you could hear mostly everything. At one point I just looked at him. I knew after the fighter lost a split decision I wouldn’t be working with him anymore. The brother acted concerned. But he was jealous and annoying. As a trainer I would never want to come between a fighter in his family. But as long as that annoying brother’s presence was near me, I didn’t want any part of it.
From a personal perspective, I stay in my place and stay to myself. I understand how family can be. So I’m respectful, but not overly accessible to family and friends because most don’t understand what a fighter goes through and they treat the fights like a vacation for themselves. Sometimes the best thing a family can do is to stay out of the way if they aren’t actually working for the fighter. Not being a distraction is actually helpful.
Fighters get chippy close to a fight. As do I. So being around different personalities when you’re about to go into a high-anxiety filled event is tough. So I tell the family when it’s necessary to let the fighters be. Basically, leave them alone.
Overall, in 15 years, my experiences have been pretty good. I’ve dealt with some distractions. I’ve dealt with some personal issues. I’ve had to do some things outside of my scope of duties. But overall, I don’t take on a fighter I don’t care about personally. So as long as I don’t have to lose brain cells and argue about their families, it’s something I can handle.
Hey Breadman, hope all is well with you. Love the content you put out every week. We are so fortunate that one of boxing’s great minds shares his insights with us lay folk. Please never stop bro. My question is pretty simple: how would you have seen a fight between Calzaghe and Froch playing out? I’m thinking the Calzaghe that beat Lacy v the Froch that beat Bute. The peak versions. Personally, I think Joe’s movement and volume punching would’ve led him to a competitive-but-clear decision. All the best, Oliver, Manchester, UK.
Bread’s response: You know, Carl Froch is better than he looks. He’s one of those fighters where his sum total is better than his parts broken down. So he may beat a lot of fighters head to head that the majority of experts have him losing to in hypothetical match-ups.
The issue for Froch is Calzaghe is also better than he appears to be. Calzaghe reminds me of Aaron Pryor, where he looks like his volume is going to get him knocked out but it never really did (Pryor lost late in his career by KO). So my pick would’ve been Calzaghe by decision. If I have two fighters whose sum total is better than their parts broken down I will pick the more talented fighter. Calzaghe.
Hey Mr Edwards, I want your opinion about a mythical match-up that should’ve happened in the 80s or 90s but never did. Pernell Whitaker versus Hector Camacho. I pick Whitaker to win, no matter when the fight happens. Who do you pick, and have you heard the story about an amateur Pernell Whitaker sparring with world titlist Hector Camacho, and dominating and embarrassing Camacho, and the teams of the two boxers being on the verge of fighting until Emanuel Steward ran them out of his gym with a gun? John, Sacramento, California
Bread’s response: Whitaker! He would’ve actually walked Camacho down and beat him up. Camacho is a great fighter but he’s not quite at the tier of Whitaker. Whitaker has a case for being a top-five fighter since 1980. He’s that good. Whereas Camacho is a great HOF fighter. But in my opinion not an ATG. He’s a clear tier or two below ATG.
Whitaker just had better application to what he wanted to do. And he had more heart. He’s willing to fight harder for a win. He’s willing to give more of himself to win a fight. I know the triangle theory doesn’t work with fighters. But look at Camacho closely – around the same time he was having life and death with Greg Heaugen and losing every round to Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker was winning every round vs Haugen and cleanly out-boxing Chavez.
I could be wrong but in this case, I think Whitaker would be Floyd Mayweather. And Camacho would be Zab Judah. All four are great fighters, but just different levels of greatness.
Peace and blessings as always sir. Short and sweet, your Eagles team has a great quarterback. I pay close attention, and if I’m not mistaken I read a tweet where you said Jalen Hurts was the Andre Ward of football. In terms of demeanor, underrated athletic ability and metal toughness that’s a great comparison. It’s unfortunate how quickly narratives change and how some athletes are treated by media. I’m a Detroit guy but big ups to Philly – you guys have a real one over there. Jack, Minnesota
Bread’s response: Yes I did say that. I think what makes me a good trainer is my ability to analyze talent. Oftentimes people can’t appreciate talent that is not their preference. For example, if you like 6ft 5ins pocket passers, those who do will likely criticize Hurts but love Justin Herbert. Because of their subjective preference they will rank Herbert over Hurts. It goes for all sports and in boxing it’s why the landscape is skewed.
Personally, I can appreciate any style, any race, any body type. I simply look at who is more effective. Not who does what I like the most.
Andre Ward is severely underrated because he’s not the pure boxer Floyd Mayweather is. He’s not the talented marvel that Roy Jones is. And he’s doesn’t have the back story that Bernard Hopkins did. But Ward has a quality about him that made him great, and you have to be able to see past the surface level.
When Hurts got drafted by Philly, most of the people I know didn’t want him here. I heard every reason from he’s only 6ft 1ins to he’s more of a runner than a passer. I’m not going to say I was in love with him. But I was willing to give him a chance because I always knew that just because an athlete isn’t your ideal subjective preference, it doesn’t mean they aren’t the real deal.
I knew what Hurts went through in college. I knew his background as a high-school kid with his dad as his coach. I saw how he handled being benched in the NCAA National Championship Game at Alabama. I saw how he later transferred schools and had great success at Oklahoma.
I just wasn’t willing to criticize him until he proved he could play or not. I didn’t understand why he was being criticized by Eagles fans and media for just being drafted. As much as physical ability matters, how a person processes, mentally, is the most important trait an athlete can have. Hurts seems to make the winning decisions more times than he doesn’t. The same thing that Andre Ward does. When people start comparing Hurts and Ward, I hope you check them and let them know where you heard it first. Stand up Eagles! And Philly fans, don’t turn on him if he doesn’t win the Super Bowl every year. Be realistic with your expectations – Hurts is a second-round draft pick and he’s already outperformed his expectations.
